Ketogenic Diets

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  • August 28, 2016 at 9:56 PM #2471
    Tim
    Keymaster

    I’ve been doing a ton of experiments and research into high fat low carb diets. I really respect the work that Joe Rogan and the guys at ONNIT are doing with their “return to primal” style of training and nutrition.

    I feel and perform best when I have only fats & proteins throughout the day. Steady energy, no crashing and fat loss… thinking of going full Ketogenic for a while and seeing how my performance adapts..

    Anyone have any experience with Ketogenic Diets?
    Anyone know of any good resources for more info other than youtube videos?

    Here is Joe talking about his experience …

    August 30, 2016 at 4:11 PM #2489
    Morgan
    Participant

    Have you found any articles or research on this? I recall seeing some and I can try to find it if you haven’t. My understanding was that it’s been shown endurance athletes can probably do pretty well on low carb but that more explosive sports like ultimate generally require carbs in some form for peak performance.

    Personally I like eating pretty low carb but I haven’t really tried it for serious training because I’ve thought I need carbs for performance. Anecdotally I’ve felt like I haven’t performed as well without carbs but I haven’t tested that at all rigorously. You feel like your performance in workouts or games has been good on minimal carbs?

    Sort of related question: when do you think is the best time in the offseason to drop weight? I’d like to cut ~5-7% of body weight or ~10-20 lbs.

    August 30, 2016 at 7:05 PM #2496
    Morgan
    Participant

    It’s hard to find good, well-designed studies on explosive sports performance specifically (lots more available for endurance) but this seems well designed and pretty close. They were looking primarily at endurance performance but the article includes this note:

    “The bicyclist subjects of this study noted a modest decline in their energy level while on training rides during the first week of the Inuit diet, after which subjective performance was reasonably restored except for their sprint capability, which remained constrained during the period of carbohydrate restriction.”

    You could also look at pro sports as an example. If keto really were effective for sports performance you’d expect to see lots of pro athletes adopting it since they make lots of money based on their ability to perform at a high level. This is a blog post but links to reputable sources and seems like a pretty good overview of paleo/low-carb diet trends in the NBA. Basically the players that were widely noted to be going low-carb ended up having performance or recovery/injury issues and ultimately started consuming carbs again. Lots of players had good results from adopting a healthier whole foods diet with fewer refined carbs and little to no sugar but nobody seems to have been successful with very low carbs overall.

    August 31, 2016 at 1:39 AM #2498
    Tim
    Keymaster

    That is very interesting about the NBA players. A lot of it comes back to what humans were originally evolved to do. Hunt/gather… go through long fasts until a big hunk of meat arrives. They didn’t eat PB & J sandwiches between elk and buffalo.

    August 31, 2016 at 1:44 AM #2499
    Tim
    Keymaster

    “Sort of related question: when do you think is the best time in the offseason to drop weight? I’d like to cut ~5-7% of body weight or ~10-20 lbs.”

    Def not during a big strength block, unless you are also doing a body building competition. I think this depends on what kind of habits you have to break to get the weight off / if its going to take a high volume of fat loss sort of training (not always in harmony with performance training). If breaking the habits are easy then do it yesterday… but likely losing weight is hard and we only have finite amounts of will power so… starting a new program and losing weight at the same time can be tough…. mental barriers aside, trimming down before the tourney and playing at a lower weight seems make sense. For example, i’m 7 weeks out from OCBC… I need to be lighter to run as fast as I need to to make plays on the beach. So, for me with a peak 7 weeks away… Its time for me to go full keto mixed with intermitting fasts…

    September 6, 2016 at 6:53 PM #2645
    Morgan
    Participant

    This is a really good, comprehensive article from Precision Nutrition on keto diets: https://www.precisionnutrition.com/ketogenic-diet. Includes some stuff about athletic performance. Basically they conclude that keto is really hard to do (actually requires pretty low protein intake and ~80%+ of calories from fat) and doesn’t really have fat loss or performance benefit.

    September 7, 2016 at 6:03 PM #2659
    Tim
    Keymaster

    This is a great article, wow thanks for the share. Helps me understand the role of Ketones better… it is interesting because i’m tinkering with different bulletproof coffee recipes and I see that some folks say that Dave Aspreys “Brain Octane Oil” is far superior to regular coconut oil and the reason is that it offers more readily available ketones. It seems, as far as fatty coffee is concerned, the top choice is Brain Octane, Second is MCT oil and Third is regular coconut oil. Verdict is still out til I experiment. What I do know, personally, is that high fats zero carbs throughout the day keeps me clearer and able to perform better. Still unsure if its worth it to keep the carbs out of the diet in the evenings. Still tinkering and this article was very helpful, thanks Morgan.

    October 20, 2016 at 6:07 AM #2792
    Wuush
    Participant

    I’ve experimented with many a diet… most recently have tried the “train low, race high” approach that Ben Greenfield and others have suggested: https://www.joetoprocycling.com/blog/2016/2/2/train-low-race-high-new-nutritional-approach

    If you think about it, it’s ancestral to have grains during part of the year but not all year (harvest only happens a few times a year). Furthermore hard training makes people insulin resistant (IR), and low-carb works well for folks who are IR, whether they are out-of-shape or training really hard #Ultimate.

    Check out Ben Greenfield’s _Low Carb Athlete_ book.

    Or this study https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-11/osu-eaw111615.php

    “Another key finding: Despite their low intake of carbs, these
    fat-burning athletes had normal muscle glycogen levels – the storage
    form of carbohydrates – at rest. They also broke down roughly the same
    level of glycogen as the high-carb runners during the long run, and
    synthesized the same amount of glycogen in their muscles during recovery
    as the high-carb athletes.”

    November 9, 2016 at 2:00 PM #2847
    Tim
    Keymaster

    My friend Sof just started a 30 day Keto Diet challenge. I’ll see if I can get her to chime in here and share her process / lessons

    January 5, 2017 at 4:36 PM #3053
    JonahWisch
    Participant

    Just watched this lecture today that has good points on Keto from an evolutionary biologist’s perspective. Worth a listen!

    January 6, 2017 at 10:48 AM #3058
    Tim
    Keymaster

    Jonah is there a link?

    Update… I did an experiment the other week. I played a full weekend of ultimate with the Portuguese Beach Worlds national in a keto state. I had zero carbs all weekend and ran off of Laird Top Fuel and Laird insta fuel. I was focused and performed well. I’m going to continue to do experiments like this …

    Anyone else ever play a full weekend of ultimate in keto?

    January 7, 2017 at 9:16 PM #3073
    JonahWisch
    Participant

    Whoops!

    February 2, 2017 at 8:08 PM #3170
    DC
    Participant

    Here is a great lecture from Dr. Peter Attia on Ketosis, the ketogenic diet and maximizing performance. It gets into the actual biochemistry and molecular interactions…very interesting stuff

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqwvcrA7oe8

    While I think it would be really hard for me personally to go 100% keto, It’s very intriguing to try.
    Although it sounds like the constant monitoring of blood work, etc would be the hardest to keep up with….

    I’ve been eating high fat for years now, but here is my new routine i’ll be trying for the next few weeks to try and up the fat content a bit.

    Breakfast 1: 24g whey protein isolate within 20 mins of waking.

    2-3 eggs, grass fed butter, on 1 Sprouted whole grain bread ~ezikiel bread

    10am – smoothie: 1/2 bananna, ~40-50g whey, 1Tbs MCT oil, 1/4tsp Magnesium orotate, 2 scoops Biotest Superfood, ~1Tbs Almond butter,

    Lunch: salad with chicken, hard boiled eggs, or a chicken sand on the sprouted bread

    Snack: nuts

    dinner: lots of Veg and protein

    ~10pm: 24 g whey, + 1/4 tsp magnesium glycinate

    February 27, 2017 at 1:12 PM #3386
    Tim
    Keymaster

    DC, this seems like a quality nutrition practice. I love the addition of magnesium. I’ve been doing ZMA’s nightly and it really helps me sleep and seems to help recovery. I’m also doing an ongoing experiment in keto adaptation. I’ll get you an update soon!

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